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Meta Rec & Thwarted Fate update - moonspinner
moonspinner
moonspinner
Meta Rec & Thwarted Fate update
It's already up on jedi_news but just in case you missed it:

sunnyskywalker meta'd at length about the George Lucas, Indiana Jones and Han/Leia(and other Lucas stories) and makes reference to The Pesky First Kiss a.k.a. the cinch that made moonspinner not a Star Wars fan for a long, long time.*


Meanwhile, Thwarted Fate has been updated at , and TheForce.Net.


ETA: The more I think about it the more I realize that the reservations I have about Leia's-canon-personality (as opposed to my mental idea of Leia which is not really the same) can be traced back, one way or another, to the ways Han/Leia squicked me the first time I watched ESB.

ETA #2: I found this link on indiefic's LJ: Rape Culture 101 From Shakesville. And it eerily explained a lot of the reactions that a lot of people had with sunnyskywalker's meta and my own comment post on it.

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Comments
frostbit_sky From: frostbit_sky Date: March 27th, 2009 10:05 pm (UTC) (Link)
Oh no.

I just.. I feel like an idiot for not ever seeing the Han/Leia kiss that way.
And yet I can't help but still like the scene. I've always been a H/L shipper.

*scratches head*

I feel displaced now.
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: March 28th, 2009 05:50 am (UTC) (Link)
Don't feel guilty. It was a romance made in the 80s by a man about an iconic couple. People weren't too hung up about political correctness then. :) What bothered me when AotC came out was how people who were so eager to fabricate stalker charges against Anakin bluntly refused to see all the technical evidence pointing Han to be something worse.

Edited at 2009-03-28 06:09 am (UTC)
ladyaeryn From: ladyaeryn Date: March 27th, 2009 11:07 pm (UTC) (Link)
Hmm, some of the points there remind me of a certain other bickering fandom pair I'm not wild about. ;)

The basic thoughts in that H/L rant occurred to me too, when formulating my own rant on how Anakin wasn't stalkerish in AotC. Comparing the first kisses: A/P are in an open area, he makes several tentative moves, each time waiting to see how she responds before he proceeds, and she's certainly not resisting him - and when she does pull away, he apologizes. Han more or less corners the much smaller Leia in a tiny space, and ignores/dismisses her protests, finally silencing her with a kiss. Yet Anakin is the creepy stalker, whereas Han's just being smooth? Uh, whatever.

That said, for some reason H/L doesn't squick me, nor do I consider Han a stalker. Maybe because Leia usually gives back as good as she gets from Han (often better), and prior to the kiss you do see signs that she is interested in him too. But the ship has never really done anything else for me, either. If I were watching the OT for the first time, I'd probably be a L/L shipper.

I really need to catch up on TF! :)
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: March 28th, 2009 06:06 am (UTC) (Link)
Yes, while having all these creepy undertones, I never doubted that Leia really wanted Han to shut her up with a kiss. And to me for a First Kiss, that's a bigger problem than if Han was actually assaulting her.

I also remember having long discussions about whose courting was actually more actionable - the guy who kisses you after taking permission or the one who backs you into a corner and kisses you with dubious permission.

*shakes head*
sistermagpie From: sistermagpie Date: March 28th, 2009 04:11 am (UTC) (Link)
Gotta admit, the Han/Leia scene doesn't bother me at all, and their age difference seems fairly inconsequential to me. They both seem like adults with Leia younger and so more idealistic. That ESB scene doesn't read to me as a "she said no" scene.

I assume the "she was 11" lines about Marion were (offensive) jokes but I could buy the 'right on the edge' fifteen for Marion. So 15-year-old Marion wanted to sleep with him, had an affair with him and then it all blew up when his father found out and he left? Since it's not in the movie I don't feel like I have to make that my personal canon but it wouldn't make Indy a rapist to me.
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: March 28th, 2009 05:54 am (UTC) (Link)
It's not a No Means No scene. It's a No Means Yes scene which is actually more problematic and would be even if the age difference was reversed. I think it's a testimony to how iconic HL have become that people tend to have a blindspot at how squicky aspects of their courtship are.
viariskywalker From: viariskywalker Date: March 28th, 2009 06:46 am (UTC) (Link)
I was actually just thinking about this last time I watched ESB. It was the first time I really thought, "gee, if this were happening in a new release movie, I would be probably pretty uncomfortable." I'm trying to figure out why it doesn't bother me in ESB with Han and Leia. Is it because I see Leia as such a strong character that I believe she would have put a stop to things if she didn't want them to go further? I think that's the main reason. If Leia were a weaker character, I think more people would have thought Han was taking advantage of her. I wonder if my acceptance of it also comes from way that scene played out: Leia told him to stop rubbing her hands, but after he didn't stop, (which was still very presumptuous of him,) the rest of her dialogue doesn't strike me as a refusal or even as saying "no." Granted, I have never been in a position where I had to tell I guy no, so I don't have actual experience in that area. I'm sure most date rapes and near-rapes have started off with a refusal of simple touching that ended up becoming forceful and violent. So I feel a little weird saying that I don't see Leia's "stop that, my hands are dirty" as being the same as telling him not to kiss her... I don't know. It bothers me a little that I can't fully figure out my own feelings on the matter. Damn you, George!

As for the age difference, I'm not as squicked by that, just because Leia is so mature and experienced for her age. Her position as a princess and a politician made her grow up faster. If she's 22 and Han's 32, that seems like a stretch, but she's more mature, and she's seen and done things Han hasn't. I have some real world examples of an age gap like that, some successful, some not. They're not necessarily great examples. My grandparents were 10 years apart, and I'm told that my grandpa (who died before I was born) could be controlling of my grandma when it came to money. But they were married when she was about 22, so she wasn't an 18 year old marrying a 28 year old. They weren't exactly egalitarian, but they worked, and they were a product of their time. *shrugs*

My mother- and father-in-law, however, are 11 1/2 years apart, and my MIL was 19 when they were married. So 19 and 30... yeah, I still feel weird about that. (Especially now that they're getting a divorce :P ) She was actually 17 when they started the relationship. She graduated high school at 16 and started college on her 17th birthday, so obviously she was mature in some ways. She met my FIL when she was 17, and I'm pretty sure that's when they got interested in one another. It still made me feel weird even when I thought they would stay together forever, but I know that the age difference plus the young age of MIL at the time they started the relationship are the basis for everything afterward that caused the divorce. She's 50 now. That's over 30 years of her life spent with this man who was 30 when they got married. The mind boggles. Just goes to show you that this stuff still goes on in real life. (Not that we thought it didn't, I guess.)

Okay, sorry that I just hijacked your entry. I'm still trying to work out why I feel one way about my in-laws and another way about H/L.

It's almost 3am here, so if that reply didn't make any sense, you'll know why. :P
viariskywalker From: viariskywalker Date: March 28th, 2009 06:48 am (UTC) (Link)
Whoa, did not mean to write an essay there. *hides*
sunlit_music From: sunlit_music Date: March 29th, 2009 02:28 am (UTC) (Link)
Oh gods, the forced kiss! >_< Yuck.

While I ended up liking H/L...the kiss is awful, and sits wrong with me. It's unacceptable and disgusting to force a kiss onto someone (and it's terrible to imply that a woman means yes when she says no).

And GL's views on the Indy/Marion age difference, and their relationship? Talk about creepy.
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: March 29th, 2009 06:37 am (UTC) (Link)
Oh gods, the forced kiss! >_< Yuck.

LOL!

While I ended up liking H/L...the kiss is awful, and sits wrong with me. It's unacceptable and disgusting to force a kiss onto someone (and it's terrible to imply that a woman means yes when she says no).

Yes, the implication that she finds this OK really does bother me more than if Han was really forcing himself on her against her will.


And GL's views on the Indy/Marion age difference, and their relationship? Talk about creepy.

Yes. That's the icing on the squick cake. :P
vanimy From: vanimy Date: March 29th, 2009 07:15 pm (UTC) (Link)
Those excerpts about Indy were creepy indeed. WTH? An affair with a 11 year old? Huh? *shudders* I still think she was 15-16 or something when that happened. And as long as it's never clarified in the movies, that's canon to me.

Regarding Han/Leia, I think we're forgetting something here. George Lucas has always based some aspects of Star Wars on old-fashioned stuff. He didn't think up the whole Han/Leia relationship. Han/Leia is very clearly based on another pairing, and that's one which is way more dysfunctional than how Han and Leia were depicted, Rhett and Scarlett in 'Gone with the wind'.

Rhett meets Scarlett when she was 16 and he's obviously much older than that, and kinda follows her around as she grows up even though she's clearly not interested. There is a whole scene with Rhett literally forcing his wife to have sex with him and Scarlett actually looking happy about it the next day. So patriarchal vision of those days? I don't really think so, because 'Gone with the wind' was written by a woman, and in that infamous scene, Scarlett is definitely willing even though she's protesting at first. Because the whole movie, we've seen Scarlett being that very strong character who only does something she wants to do and is actually a manipulative bitch. That and she deludes herself in thinking she loves another man.

Usually I'm not into bickering ships, heck, I was into H/Hr and not into R/Hr in the Harry Potter days. But these two work for me. Actually I never quite questioned myself before and I'm now wondering if I'm not mentally disturbed! I wasn't disturbed by this Han/Leia kiss on first viewing, not because Han was an iconic character and could never do wrong (I didn't really know Han Solo before watching the movies) but because to me, it's always been obvious Leia was attracted to Han but didn't want to admit it (and she's an adult even though there's an age gap). She was so stubborn nothing would've ever happened if Han hadn't kissed her. Now, if Han had kissed her and she had pushed him away and he had insisted, then I would've been creeped out. Just like it's always been obvious to me that Scarlett was in love with Rhett for sometime already and needed that infamous night to realize her feelings for Rhett and his feelings for her. Some consider this as a rape scene and I understand why but I never saw it that way.

Argh. But you made me doubt all that and I think I'm mentally disturbed now. :o
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: March 30th, 2009 06:25 am (UTC) (Link)
Han/Leia is very clearly based on another pairing, and that's one which is way more dysfunctional than how Han and Leia were depicted, Rhett and Scarlett in 'Gone with the wind'.


Wow, that makes sense. There was a very popular H/L story written by LadyPadme back in the day and there were a lot of comments about how she was basing the plot on Rhett/Scarlett. And it is the same style, isn't it? Right down to the "You need a good kiss" lines.

I don't think that the fact that it was written by a woman means that it isn't a patriachal vision. I mean, if you and I grew up in the good old days when it was "good thing" for women not to go to school and vote, we'd probably believe that it was the best. We'd probably write stories where the women who tried to get suffrage were villains/witches/etc etc. Humanity has come a long way. There are a lot of things that are unacceptable now - prejudice, segregation, war-as-first-method of conflict resolution - that were the norm then, even seen as admirable things.

Don't be silly. You're not mentally disturbed for not correlating Rowling's ridiculous courtship rituals (oh, Lily called James a toerag for picking on her friend, four-to-one ---> that means she likes him!!!) with Han/Leia.


She was so stubborn nothing would've ever happened if Han hadn't kissed her. Now, if Han had kissed her and she had pushed him away and he had insisted, then I would've been creeped out. Just like it's always been obvious to me that Scarlett was in love with Rhett for sometime already and needed that infamous night to realize her feelings for Rhett and his feelings for her. Some consider this as a rape scene and I understand why but I never saw it that way.

Argh. But you made me doubt all that and I think I'm mentally disturbed now. :o


Stubborn women needing to be "Tamed" have been a fiction trope since the original Taming of the Shrew. But I don't like it because of everything it means: Taming. The Shrew. Gee, how romantic.

But no, I don't see Leia as Han's victim anymore than I saw Scarlett as Rhett's victim. I just wish the "No means Yes" scenes didn't happen in the first place.
gwinna487 From: gwinna487 Date: March 30th, 2009 05:29 am (UTC) (Link)
So I came to this entry in a roundabout way, via jedi_news and your link in the comments to lazypadawan's post, and then I noticed you mention Thwarted Fate! I just read the two volumes of that story recently on fanfiction.net and it's definitely one of my favorite Star Wars fics that I've read in the short time I've been in this fandom. I didn't know who the author was on lj, so I was just really excited and wanted to tell you how much I love it and how pleased I am it's still being written. Er, yeah. *feels embarrassed*

Regarding Han/Leia, the kiss never squicked me... I don't know, maybe it was because I used to ship Draco/Hermione in the Harry Potter fandom and I was used to love stories where people are in denial about their feelings. But now that sunnyskywalker and you have brought it up, I can see how it would be problematic, since it reinforces the idea that when a woman says no, she actually means yes. Overall I still like Han/Leia though.

The only part of TESB that actually bothered me when I first saw it was in the beginning, when Han says that Leia doesn't want him to go, and she says "you obviously don't know women very well." What bothered me was that it turns out Han was right all along and Leia really was just acting like a silly and irrational woman in that scene. Hmm, I'm not explaining it very well, but it just gives off the feeling of one those "women, there's no understanding them" male in-jokes, as though we were a different species that's prone to random fits of irrational behavior.

...And that's a lot more than I intended to write. Sorry about that!
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: March 30th, 2009 06:15 am (UTC) (Link)
I noticed you mention Thwarted Fate! I just read the two volumes of that story recently on fanfiction.net and it's definitely one of my favorite Star Wars fics that I've read in the short time I've been in this fandom. I didn't know who the author was on lj, so I was just really excited and wanted to tell you how much I love it and how pleased I am it's still being written. Er, yeah. *feels embarrassed*


*g* *g*

Well, I'm embarrased with pleasure! :D :D I'm really glad that you like Thwarted Fate. It's one of my favourite stories but it's not been easy to write it. I'm only one of the writers - we started out as three, but now it's down to reihla and myself. (So you can go and fan-girl her as well. She'd like that. ;) )


But now that sunnyskywalker and you have brought it up, I can see how it would be problematic, since it reinforces the idea that when a woman says no, she actually means yes. Overall I still like Han/Leia though.

I don't dislike H/L either - just thought I'd get that out there. :) Or at least, I can't imagine either of them with anyone else. :) But the kiss is like the epitome of the problems I have with their courtship. Once they become a couple, they're actually awesome. It's the getting together part that bothers me.

The only part of TESB that actually bothered me when I first saw it was in the beginning, when Han says that Leia doesn't want him to go, and she says "you obviously don't know women very well." What bothered me was that it turns out Han was right all along and Leia really was just acting like a silly and irrational woman in that scene. Hmm, I'm not explaining it very well, but it just gives off the feeling of one those "women, there's no understanding them" male in-jokes, as though we were a different species that's prone to random fits of irrational behavior.


You could have read my mind. Like I said, the kiss is the biggest problem I have with the H/L courtship - there are all these other red flags.

Of course, H/L is typical of the Battle of the Sexes style of courting, at least as shown in movies of that time. My friend, viariskywalker explains it better:


Yeah, sensing some backlash against the liberated woman. .... I can totally see this scene as representing the male reaction to powerful women that occurred in the 70s. So she’s strong and independent, huh? Well, you’ll see, when it comes to love, she’s like any other girl: she wants the man to take charge. So yeah, I can see that mindset at work in that scene.
fialleril From: fialleril Date: March 30th, 2009 05:24 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think that some of the things that have come up in this conversation are a big part of the reason why ESB as a whole isn't my favorite of the OT. I know a lot of critics seem to think it's the best of the trilogy, but I've never really been able to get past how much I dislike Han and Leia's relationship in this movie. And since that does make up about half the movie, it's just enough to cancel out the epic awesome of the Luke and Vader scenes, if that makes sense.

I liked Han and Leia in ANH. And I admit, I absolutely love their relationship in ROTJ. They break a surprising number of stereotypes in that movie, especially considering when it was made. They seem to be on a much more equal footing in ROTJ, and as sunnyskywalker pointed out, Han not once but twice chooses not to act like a jealous jerk, which seems like such a rare thing in movie romances.

So yes, slightly off topic, but I think this is why ROTJ has always been my favorite. I like all of the storylines (well, with the exception of the bronze bikini...). Yes, even the Ewoks, though I think they could have been handled better.
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: March 31st, 2009 06:54 am (UTC) (Link)
I think that some of the things that have come up in this conversation are a big part of the reason why ESB as a whole isn't my favorite of the OT. I know a lot of critics seem to think it's the best of the trilogy, but I've never really been able to get past how much I dislike Han and Leia's relationship in this movie. And since that does make up about half the movie, it's just enough to cancel out the epic awesome of the Luke and Vader scenes, if that makes sense.

Yes, it does and I know what you mean because I feel the same way. I've had to do a lot of mental fanwanking just to reconcile myself to Leia's ESB!personality.


I absolutely love their relationship in ROTJ. They break a surprising number of stereotypes in that movie, especially considering when it was made. They seem to be on a much more equal footing in ROTJ, and as sunnyskywalker pointed out, Han not once but twice chooses not to act like a jealous jerk, which seems like such a rare thing in movie romances.

RotJ! Han/Leia make the couple for me. Then and only then, can I see how they compare favourably to Anakin/Padme.


So yes, slightly off topic, but I think this is why ROTJ has always been my favorite. I like all of the storylines (well, with the exception of the bronze bikini...). Yes, even the Ewoks, though I think they could have been handled better.

ROTJ is my favourite, too. Even though I disliked the bronze bikini, Leia did get to awesomely strangle the slimeball (literally) who made her wear it.
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