From: souderwan	Date: February 5th, 2007 11:15 am (UTC)		(Link)

Interesting poll, LN. I was thinking about this recently when working on my own story and debating whether or not I wanted to use this particular tool.

The mind trick looks pretty cool and the surface and it made for great entertainment in AotC, but....Wow! Could you be any more abusive, Obi-Wan?? Anyway, I can accept the mind trick if the overall good is served by the violation (like in ANH when Obi-Wan gets them past the storm troopers).

From: galadhir	Date: February 5th, 2007 12:56 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I've put that I don't think the Sith use the Jedi Mind Trick because I think that the mind trick depends on being able to establish a sort of living force sympathy between user and victim. It's a sort of hypnotic suggestion that requires a kind of empathy between the two - and the Sith, I think, would go for a more straight-out compulsion, or even the torture option (or both) :)

	From: vanimy	Date: February 5th, 2007 02:54 pm (UTC)		(Link)

It's a tough issue you're addressing. The way it's presented in the movies you think it's normal for a Jedi to mind trick someone... But when you think about it, it's ambiguous at best.

I would've answered 'I don't know' to the question about the Sith using mind tricks if I could have. I really have no idea about it...

I think that since they say that mind tricks only work on the weak minded people tend to not feel too concerned about it...

From: bobill	Date: February 5th, 2007 05:46 pm (UTC)		(Link)

dude, I second (third? fourth? n+1th?) the interesting ness of this poll. Therefore I shall take the 10 minutes before my next class starts to express more interest.

When viewing a mind-control/brain washing scenario, who do you empathize with more?

Such an interesting question, one that I will not even begin to answer. It really is the trick of the director, isn't it, to choose whether the story is about the manipulator or manipulated. It's kind of like the whole Antigone thing in the Sophocles trilogy... Is the story about Antigone the tragic killed, or Creon the killer?

Do you see mind control as an acceptable form of violation?

I put yes [give other reason] but frankly I don't know. I mean, right now, while I sit in this confortable chair basking in the sunlight, I'd abhor anyone who tried to read my mind. But if for some reason my mother was dying of crack and the only way I could save her was to mind-trick some evil doctor with a magical antibody to save her, I'd totally try to justify it by weighing the advantages and disadvantages, saying I didn't actually hurt the doctor, etc etc. (sorry for the ramble/bad grammar... class in 5...)

I'm interested to what your answers to the poll were.

	From: fialleril	Date: February 6th, 2007 11:38 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Thanks for broaching this topic. I think you know my feelings on this, but I'll share again anyway. ;)

I think mind control of any kind is one of those things that comes very close to being unforgivable. (Notice I only say very close, because I don't think there's anything that is literally unforgivable.) The problem with the mind trick, or with any form of mind control, is that it robs the victim of a part of what it means to be human (or sentient, if you prefer, since we're talking Star Wars). Even if, as some people have suggested, the victim does in some way have to consent to the mind control, as in hypnosis, the fact that they are being relieved of free will remains.

Actually, this whole discussion reminds me very much of the Grand Inquisitor in The Brothers Karamazov. He believed that people want nothing so much as to be rid of their free will, to find someone to tell them what to do, so that they could have peace. He, the Inquisitor, would be that person, and he would essentially control all the desperate masses eager to be rid of the freedom that makes them human, and for their own good.

But they wouldn't be human any more. Their minds, their thoughts, their feelings, their lives would not be their own, or even their community's. They would simply be automatons, living a life of blissful ignorance that is not really a life at all. Because without freedom, nothing that makes life truly life is possible: love, self-expression, artistry, variety, emotion, etc.

A mind trick such as "These aren't the droids you're looking for," seems like a very small thing. But it is, nevertheless, a taking control of someone else's freedom. "You want to go home and rethink your life," although on the surface seemingly more innocent, is actually much more problematic. If Elan does go home and rethink his life, and if he changes his ways, what then. Is that a good thing? It would be too easy to say yes. But the truth of the matter is this: if he does change his life, did he really choose to do so himself? And if not, was the change worth the loss of his freedom?

For the last question, I believe I would actually prefer to be tortured rather than to be mind tricked. However, when someone is tortured past the breaking point, the torture itself can become a form of mind control. So actually, I think there is very little difference between those two options. Personally, I think that both are equally abhorrent...

	From: sunnyskywalker	Date: February 11th, 2007 10:31 pm (UTC)		(Link)

This is a fascinating poll. I've been thinking about this issue on and off for a while, and it's good to see others have too!

I said that the Mind Trick is the same as Imperius, because that is the closest to my opinion, but I think we're hampered by the fuzziness of the descriptions sometimes. Harry can fight off Imperius, with practice, so it doesn't completely overwhelm the controllee's will - but it does seem a lot stronger than the Mind Trick. We've never heard of anyone going, "Bah! Imperius doesn't work on me!" There are also other forms of mind control in HP, like Confundus and Obliviate, and it's hard to say exactly how those differ from Imperius. Is it a similar process, but different in aim and maybe strength? Or is it completely different?

Regardless, the Mind Trick is a little creepy to me, even though it does make for some funny moments. I can grudgingly accept Obi-Wan's "These aren't the droids you're looking for," because he's trying to keep Luke, the droids, and himself from ending up in the Empire's hands. That would mean Obi-Wan would probably be toast, Luke would either be dead or under Vader's power, the Rebellion wouldn't get the Death Star plans... it's a pretty desperate situation. But when he uses it to get rid of an annoying drug dealer in AotC, I think he's definitely abusing it. A lot. He could have gotten rid of Elean without that, but he messed with his head anyway, which seems to me like a profound lack of respect for other beings' free will.

Sorry to go on so long!

	From: skye_princess	Date: February 12th, 2007 12:01 am (UTC)		(Link)

This is a very interesting point that you have raised with this poll. Personally I would not like to be mind-controlled because regardless of how much free will one actually would have, your thoughts and your actions are one hundred percent NOT your own. One can resist but the controller will inevitably, no matter how slightly, exert more strength and power over you in turn.

I liked your question about whether the Sith would have used the Jedi Mind Trick. I think that they would have used some version of it. I'm not sure how similar it would have been to the Jedi Mind Trick, but I believe that all the basic principals and goals would be the same. I have not read the EU so this statement is based completely on my own observations but I suspect that the origins of the Jedi and the Sith are a lot closer than people are aware of. There are too many similarities between the two orders for them to be ignored: lightsabers, similar uses of the Force, etc. In the case of the Sith the mind trick would, in my opinion, be closer to the Imperius curse. A more sinister purpose exists behind the two thus the similarity in my mind.

One final point I would like to make is that the debate about whether the Jedi Mind Trick is good or bad would depend entirely on the circumstances in which the mind trick is used. In A New Hope when Ben Kenobi uses the trick on the two Stormtroopers to get past them is an example of when the trick is used with good intentions. If for example Darth Vader or Anakin as he is walking down the dark path uses the trick in a similar manner like his master in the cantina in Attack of the Clones, then, depending on his intentions, the trick could be seen as bad. Circumstance is very important before one can pass final judgement on an issue.

Overall a great poll. I like these sorts of questions that generate a lot of great discussion on everybody's part.