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Why Spike & Dru were human monsters - and Angel was not - moonspinner
Why Spike & Dru were human monsters - and Angel was not
I've been watching the Season 2 DVD and something struck me in 'Innocence'. Spike & Dru had to protect themselves from the Monster because they still had some humanity in them - affection and jealousy, as the monster put it. Angelus on the other hand, was 'pure evil'. Interesting. There was a lot of talk in Seasons 5 about Spike, how he could love Buffy and want to be good without a soul. But when you think about it, he had loved Dru long before Buffy, and had even made a deal with her [Buffy] to get Dru back. And no matter how skankily Dru behaved when Angel turned in Season 2, there was real affection between her and Spike. I'll never forget how she carried him from the church when his legs were broken.

I think a lot of the reason why Dru and Spike held on to a little bit of their humanity - and why Angel did not - is because of what they were when they were humans. Angel said something like that to Willow in 'Doppelganger' (and that was proved when Willow ended up gay, like her Evil! Willow self in the alternate dimension]. Spike was a sensitive [albeit bloody] poet, a romantic and a little bit of a Mama's boy. Drusilla was [in Angel's own words] a pure, clean, innocent girl who wanted to be good, a 'bride' of Christ. Angel, however, was a useless layabout, thief and womanizer. Their dominant personalities translated into their un-lives. Spike remaining essentially a romantic; Drusilla, keen on her dolls and children, despite her love for Spike she'd rather be a 'bride' to her Sire [even though she's never quite forgotten what he did to her before he turned her]; Angel, a sadist.

In many ways, I count Spike as more worthy of redemption than Angel was. I think this was touched on a little in the Angel Season 5 when they met up with each other. Angel's soul was restored with a curse. Angelus, the vampire, did not and would never had asked for his soul. Spike 'earned' his soul and was already half-way to redemption before he got it. One could almost say that the soul was just a formality. He was already more human than some of the living people on the show. I had always hoped he would 'become' human in the end. The ghost Spike was a dissapointment.

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garnettrees From: garnettrees Date: October 30th, 2005 02:48 pm (UTC) (Link)
*tackles Leia_N shamelessly* That's exactly it! I've never been a real fan of Angel as a character, simply because-- no matter how hard he tries to 'redeem' himself'-- I always get the feeling that he's lacking an essential humanity. I adore Spike, and I love Drusilla-- to me, that pairing makes a lot more sense than Spike/Buffy. (I don't know how you feel about that pairing-- to each their own. ^__^)

Spike's soul as a formality! I'd never thought about that, but I love it. Are you going to be writing BtVS fic, doll? *hopeful*
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: October 30th, 2005 03:12 pm (UTC) (Link)
*tackles Merry right back* Glad you liked my little rant. Not that I hate Angel or anything... it's just that what he did to Drusilla was a litte.... unforgivable. :p Anyway, I always thought it would have been far better for Buffy's arc if he had stayed dead after Season 2. That way whenever she said that she made sacrifices as a Slayer, it would have carried more weight. Besides after Season 2, Angel really didn't add anything to the plot of the series [which explains the exit at the end of Season 3.]

Spike/Drusilla were hilarous - "Well, she sounds very unreasonable."; "She is, out of her mind. That's what I love the most about her." Funny thing, how well Spike got along with Joyce. Angel never really impressed Buffy's mom but Spike did it without even trying.

Technically, Spike/Buffy - Spufft, Bikey - weren't a pairing since during their extremely physical relationship, Buffy treated him like a deep, dark secret and never told him that she loved him. But I liked their arc - from enemies to varying degrees of allies to a turbulent friendship and then finally, to that one scene in Season 7 where they're the closest they've ever been to anybody simply by sleeping in each other's arms. I like the fact that Joss never insulted the audience by clapping his hands and having Spike/Buffy dancing down the street holding hands. Their relationship was very volatile which was natural considering where it was based on - the fact that Spike was still amoral and her natural enemy.

[I understood but never forgave Buffy for despising Spike for being an inhuman 'thing' when as a vampire, he was almost as good as Angel had been with a soul.]

But that's my opinion anyway. No BtVS fanfic from me. Sorry! I have enough on my plate trying to break the writer's block that's barricaded my SW epic...
garnettrees From: garnettrees Date: October 30th, 2005 06:33 pm (UTC) (Link)
I've always loved the relationship between Spike and Joyce-- he's at least a hundred years her senior, but she's still like a surrogate Mum to him, actually listening to him and treating him like a person. I actually cried when he brought flowers for her funeral.

Another Spike relationship I love is his big brother/little sister thing with Dawn. I was really pissed off at Joss for ruining that with the whole 'rape' thing. My big problems with that are A)It was completely out of character for Spike and, B)Buffy told him 'no' so many times and did it anyway that I feel like it plays into that 'oh, they really want it' mind-set. I hope that makes sense. I love Spike teaching Dawn to pick locks, and looking after her when she goes on her little Zombie adventure.

Spuffy has, to me, always seemed a little out of character for Spike, so I'm glad Joss didn't do a happily-ever-after ending for them. I just love Spike, though, so I stuck with it through to the end.

I've written some BtVS fic, but it's all slash, so I won't reccommend it to you. ^__^ Hopefully the ROTS DVD will help break your writer's block-- I'm hopeing it will do the same for mine!

moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: October 30th, 2005 07:14 pm (UTC) (Link)
I, too, had problems with the rape thing. I've never quite understood it as a matter of fact. Buffy is as strong, if not stronger than, Spike. They've always had a very violent sexual relationship. For crying out loud, the first time they made love, they were seriously beating each other up. If she hadn't wanted him to touch her, a nice good fling against the bathroom door would have done the trick. Taking their past encounters as a pre... pre... pre...

[RATS!what's that word in law? when something's happened before, it's legal]

well, everytime Buffy said 'no', she meant 'yes'. And in his own words, whenever she wanted to leave, all she had to do was kick him in the head and run off. So sorry, I never felt sorry for her in that scene, just angry and mightily ticked off at her, Xander and the screenwriters. And the fact that Dawn's friendship with Spike ended on account of that was just too bad.

Well, I've never really seen Spuffy as entirely ooc for Spike. I felt it was actually a natural development from Spike's earlier obssession with killing her to the fact that neither of them seemed to want to just kill the other. In fact, even in the first Spike episode 'School Hard', there was a way he looked at Buffy the very first time he saw her. There was surprise, and there was a very definite attraction. And it wasn't a crude, lusty kind of attraction, more of a surprised, gentle, wtf kind of spark. [Which I later read was deliberate acting on James Marsters part].

What I liked about the non-happily-ever-after ending, was like just as it would have been a cheat to get Buffy and Angel together after all the things that stand between them, it would also have been a cheat to get Spike and Buffy together after all the things that came before and after. Like someone once said - a fish and a bird can fall in love, but where would they live? I think the whole final redemption, Spike dying to save the world, and Buffy saying for the 1st and last time that she loved him was just the right touch.

Oh, I won't mind slash. Willow/Tara was one of the most wonderful bits about BtVS. I cried so when Tara was wounded by Glory, even though she was healed eventually. When she was killed, it took a while for the shock to enter. I kept on expecting her to resurrect like Angel or Buffy. ::sniffles:: But she never did.

Yeah, I'm hoping the same! I'm hitting the shops Tuesday after work! BTW, are there going to be any differences between the UK and US versions?

garnettrees From: garnettrees Date: October 30th, 2005 08:05 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think the word you're looking for is precedent. ^^;; That's an excellent point, though. I totally agree with you-- I was very ticked off at Buffy, Xander, and the writers for that scene.
I guess I like Buffy and Spike as friendly enemies (or enemies that respect each others resourcefulness), but I don't like the pairing. One of the primary reasons is that I prefer Spike with someone else. (Though if we have to talk canon, I'm die-hard Spike/Dru. ^__^)

I loved the Willow/Tara storyline. I actually ended up liking Tara better than Willow, but I loved them both as a couple. They were so sweet, and they had these really great moments where everyone went "*blink*, *blink*" trying to get used to the two kick-ass witches!

Oh, I won't mind slash.
I'm so glad to hear that! There's only one problem: my slash is Spike/Xander. Yes, I know I have serious issues-- there's no helping it.

I don't know about any differences between US/UK-- I hope not. I'm really looking forward to all those deleted Padme scenes!
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: October 30th, 2005 08:12 pm (UTC) (Link)
LOL! Precedent! God bless you! ::hugs::

Yeah, me too about Tara. Willow went through a lot of changes in the series and not all were good. But as a couple, esp a wicca couple, they kicked serious butt. How totally angsty of joss to break them up, get them back together and kill tara off in the end! ::sobs::

Spike/Xan - 2 hotties! yum-yum. ::winks::
garnettrees From: garnettrees Date: October 30th, 2005 11:51 pm (UTC) (Link)
*hugs back*

Joss really knows how to turn on the angst, doesn't he? You're right about Willow's changes-- I liked her better in the High School years, and season four. After that, she had to be with Tara for me to get as excited about her as I used to.

Spike/Xan - 2 hotties! yum-yum. ::winks::
*grins* And Spike does have a thing for dark-eyed brunettes. ^_~
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: October 30th, 2005 11:55 pm (UTC) (Link)
LOL! He does, doens't he?

I think I was really turned off Willow's character in Season 7, when she makes that pretty little speech to Buffy about how she's no longer needed. Come to think of it, I was turned off EVERYONE's character in that episode. Except Spike who was a doll. 'I'll handle her. Make it look like a painful accident.'

Buffy is an idiot.
garnettrees From: garnettrees Date: October 31st, 2005 05:31 am (UTC) (Link)
Almost all of season seven was unbelievably painful. Season Six was even worse, what with the Nerd Squad. I prefer to leave things after season five, with Buffy dead, Dawn being raised by the Scoobies, and Spike finding his way in the world as a good bad-guy. ^__^ In my opinion, the real gems from the series are seasons 2-5. One of my absolute favorites is "Fool For Love". I have a soft spot for William that's the the size of Montana.

Am I the only one who found Kennedy annoying? She couldn't hold a candle to Tara.
moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: October 31st, 2005 07:10 am (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, I told she was annoying as well. I liked the last episode of Season 7, though. And I liked 'Lies my parents told me': I'll always have a soft spot for a Spike back story.
garnettrees From: garnettrees Date: October 31st, 2005 05:16 pm (UTC) (Link)
Any Spike backstory always makes me happy, and you're right-- the last episode of the series was good. I loved the part where it was just Giles, Buffy, Xander and Willow-- the old Scooby gang-- talking about going shopping after they finished saving the world. ^__^

moonspinner From: moonspinner Date: October 31st, 2005 05:35 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, I liked it too. The fact that they all started together and finished together. My greatest fear was always Giles dying in the series - to fulfill the 'mentor' role in the hero's journey; or Willow or Xander dying or leaving Buffy... I'm glad that the 'family' got back together in the end again!
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